Srila Prabhupada and Allen Ginsberg Conversation (Part 3)
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(May 13, 1969, Columbus, Ohio)
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Prabhupada: What is called? Lunatic, compact in thought. So Krishna lover is also another kind of lunatic effect.

Allen Ginsberg: Except that it would mean concentrating all my consciousness on the one single image of Krishna.

Prabhupada: Not image.

Allen Ginsberg: Or the one single thought or name or feeling or awareness.

Prabhupada: That we have got varieties of duties. Just like we are. You have seen all these boys. They are always engaged. Always engaged. Similarly, everywhere they are always engaged in Krishna. We want extra time to work for Krishna. The twenty-four hours is not sufficient for us. Yes. Then we shall see that we are sleeping, wasting time. Gosvamis, they used to sleep for one half-hour only. That also sometimes forgot.

Allen Ginsberg: To dream?

Prabhupada: No. They were always engaged. Volumes of books they have written. When there is no writing, chanting, dancing, talking, and like that -- engaged in Krishna always. That we have been taught by our Guru Maharaja, twenty-four hours engagement with Krishna. So maya has no scope to enter in our mind. She always remains aloof: "Oh, here is fire. I cannot touch." Bhakti mukulitan... Bhaktis tvayi sthiratara yadi bhagavan syad daivena phalati divya-kisora-murtih, muktir mukulitanjalih sevate 'sman. Bilvamangala Thakura, a great devotee, he executed devotional service for seven hundred years. He lived for seven hundred years in Vrndavana. That picture you have seen, Suradasa? Yes.

Allen Ginsberg: Suradasa, the poet.

Prabhupada: Yes. He is known as Suradasa.

Allen Ginsberg: Teacher of Tulasi Dasa, or student of Tulasi Dasa.

Prabhupada: He may be different, but Bilvamangala Thakura, he was also blind. He made himself blind. You know the story of Bilvamangala?

Allen Ginsberg: No.

Prabhupada: Bilvamangala Thakura, in his previous life, he elevated himself to the loving stage of Krishna. Not exactly, just previous, bhava. It is called bhava, ecstasy. But some way or other, he could not finish, so according to the instruction of Bhagavad-gita, he was given birth to a nice brahmana family. (aside:) You can call that Bengali lady. She can hear. So very rich. Sucinam srimatam gehe [Bg. 6.41], in that way. Rich family, at the same time, brahmana family. But richness, generally, sometimes glide down to wine, women, and intoxication. So by bad company he became woman-hunter, prostitute-hunter. So he was too much addicted to one woman, Cintamani. So his father died, and he was... He did not marry. In your country it is called girlfriend, and in our country it is called prostitute. So he was that(?) about that prostitute, Cintamani. So he was performing the rituals, but he was thinking of his girlfriend, that Cintamani, "When I shall go there?" Bilvamangala Thakura? Yes. So he asked his servants, "Give me some food. I shall go to Cintamani." So anyway, he performed... Did not perform. His mind was there. He took some nice foodstuff, and when he went, there was a big river, and it was raining heavily, and the river was flooded. So he thought, "How shall I go the other side?" So one dead body was floating. So he thought, "It is a log," and he took the help of the log and went the other side. And it was heavy raining. And then, when he reached that Cintamani's home, he saw the door is locked already. Blocked. So he jumped over the wall, taking the tail of a serpent, and when he reached inside, he knocked the door, and Cintamani was astonished. "How did you come? So heavy rain. You had to cross the river." He said everything, that "Oh, I cannot stay without you." So she was much inquisitive: "How did you come? How did you jump over this wall?" And so he showed everything, that there was a big snake, and so he thought it as rope and jumped it. And then, when he went to the riverside, he saw that was a dead body. So at that time Cintamani thought, "Oh, this man is so much addicted to me." So she told, "Oh, this much attraction if you would have with Krishna, oh, how nice your life would have been." So immediately he came to his senses because he was lifted to that position in his previous life. So immediately he left and was going alone to Vrndavana. And on the way he saw another beautiful woman. So his business was to be attracted by woman. So he again became attracted. So he was following. So this woman, after entering, she told her husband, "Just see, this man is following from a distant place." So he asked him, "Oh, come on." He saw he is nice gentleman. He was a rich man, brahmana. "What is this?" He said plainly, "Oh, I have been attracted by your wife, by the beauty of your wife." "All right, come on. What is that?" You enjoy my wife. You are brahmana. You are..." So he was received well. And at night, when he was given place, then he asked that woman, "Mother, will you give me your hair pin?" He took the hair pin and pushed in the eyes: "Oh, these eyes are my enemy." Since then he became blind. And in that blindness he was worshiping Krishna, and Krishna was coming to him. And he would not touch. He'll sing, dance, and He'll supply milk and go away. So this Bilvamangala Thakura wrote one book, Krishna-karnamrta. It is very valuable book. That is very highly estimated, Lord Caitanya.

Allen Ginsberg: What century is that?

Prabhupada: It is since seven hundred years...

Guest (1) (Indian Woman): Fourteenth...

Prabhupada: Yes, fourteenth century.

Allen Ginsberg: Bilda... How do you pronounce his name?

Prabhupada: No. Fourteenth century, not Bilvamangala. Bilvamangala Thakura, some time before(?).

Guest (1): Bilvamangala.

Allen Ginsberg: Bilvamangala. Bilvamangala. No, I didn't know the name.

Prabhupada: Yes. There are many poets. He was great poet. If you read this Krishna-karnamrta poetry, ah, you'll find...

Guest (1): Vaisnava, (Bengali) ...Vidyapati, Candidasa.

Prabhupada: Vidyapati, Candidasa, Jayadeva.

Allen Ginsberg: Jayadeva, I know.

Guest (1): Jayadeva is a great Vaisnava.

Prabhupada: There are many nice poets.

Allen Ginsberg: I know some of the Baul poetry in English.

Prabhupada: You just try to read this Narottama dasa Thakura especially.

Allen Ginsberg: Who?

Prabhupada: Narottama dasa Thakura.

Allen Ginsberg: Nartham.

Prabhupada: There are many...

Guest (1): Narottama.

Prabhupada: That song you were reading last night, Nitai pada kamala? That is Narottama dasa Thakura's song. For the Vaisnava, to become poet is another qualification. Vaisnava has twenty-six qualifications. I think it is written there.

Allen Ginsberg: And one of them is to become poet also.

Prabhupada: Poet. He must be poet. All the Vaisnavas, they are poet.

Guest (1): Because they are so deep in love with God.

Prabhupada: Yes. Poetry comes out in deep love with something.

Allen Ginsberg: Is that published somewhere?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Kirtanananda: Arjuna just typed it up, and...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Kirtanananda: You want to see?

Allen Ginsberg: No, don't take it down. I'll look. On my way out I'll read.

Prabhupada: Hrsikesa, you can read loudly. We'll hear.

Hrsikesa: "Qualifications of devotee: 1) kind to everyone, 2) does not quarrel with anyone, 3) fixed in the Absolute Truth, 4) equal to everyone, 5) faultless, 6) charitable, 7) mild, 8) clean, 9) simple, 10) benevolent, 11) peaceful, 12) completely attached to Krishna, 13) no material hankering, 14) meek, 15) steady, 16) self-controlled, 17) does not eat more than required, 18) sane, 19) respectful..." (laughter)

Prabhupada: Not insane.

Hrsikesa: "...20) humble, 21) grave, 22) compassionate, 23) friendly, 24) poetic, 25) expert..."

Prabhupada: Poetic.

Hrsikesa: "...25) expert, and 26) silent."

Prabhupada: These are the qualities.

Allen Ginsberg: Whose list is that? Is that an old list or have you made that up for young Americans?"

Prabhupada: Yes. No, these are taken from authoritative sastras. Yes. This is the test, whether you are becoming Krishna conscious or not. You have to test yourself, whether you are developing these qualities. This is for testing.

Allen Ginsberg: I'm slowly developing all qualities except sanity. (laughter)

Prabhupada: Insanity for seeking Krishna, that is required. Yes. Unless you become insane after Krishna just like Lord Caitanya became... Yes. His worship is to become insane after Krishna.

Allen Ginsberg: Is Kabir in the Vaisnava tradition?

Guest (1): He is mystic.

Allen Ginsberg: So what tradition is he in, actually?

Prabhupada: He is impersonalist on the whole. He is impersonalist, whole, and he has got some Vaisnava thought. That's all, perverted thoughts. Perverted thoughts.

Allen Ginsberg: So who is the most perfect of the Vaisnava poets? That would be Mira?

Guest (1): Mira was a devotee. She was a Vaisnava.

Prabhupada: Yes. Devotee means...

Guest (1): Vaisnava. She was, Mira, Krsna devotee. Oh, her songs has called me.

Allen Ginsberg: Have you used her songs here at all?

Prabhupada: Yes, in India it is very popular, Mira's song. Mostly they are written in Hindi, and some of them have been interpolated. But Mira was a devotee. She saw Rupa Gosvami, a contemporary. She has written many poetry about Lord Caitanya.

Allen Ginsberg: Oh, she was a contemporary of Caitanya?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Allen Ginsberg: Did they meet?

Prabhupada: No. She appreciated that Lord Caitanya is Krishna, and she has written one poetry, song, that "Now You have left aside Your flute, and You have taken the sannyasi rod." In that way she has written nice poetry. "And where is Your hair and peacock feather? Now You are bald-headed." In this way. So Mira appreciated. Her life is also very excellent. Her father gave her a small Krishna doll to play, and she developed love for Krishna as husband. So when she was married... She was princess, daughter of king, and she was married with another prince.

Allen Ginsberg: What position does Anandamayi Ma have now?

Prabhupada: She is also impersonalist.

Allen Ginsberg: She is impersonalist

Prabhupada: She is not a devotee. There are many impersonalists. They take advantage of... They say, "Caitanya's patha, Sankara's matha," that "Follow the principle of Caitanya but ultimately take the conclusion of Sankara." That means...

Allen Ginsberg: Siva.

Prabhupada: No. Sankaracarya.

Allen Ginsberg: Aha. What was the conclusion of Sankaracarya?

Prabhupada: Sankaracarya's conclusion was to defeat Buddhism. They do not know it, but actually, when there was too much animal-killing and people became almost atheist under the shadow of Vedic rituals, Lord Buddha appeared. He wanted to stop men from the sinful activities of killing unnecessarily under the plea of Vedas. So he invented that ahimsa, nonviolence. And... Because people will give evidence, "Oh, in the Vedas there is..." They are not following, actually, the Vedic rituals, but just like crooked lawyers take advantage of law books, similarly... Therefore, Lord Buddha said that "I do not follow Vedic rituals. I have nothing to do with Vedas. It is my own formula." So Jayadeva has written one prayer because the Vaisnavas can understand how God is playing. So he writes, nindasi yajna-vidher ahaha sruti-jatam: "My dear Lord, now You have appeared as Lord Buddha. You are decrying the Vedic rituals." Sruti-jatam. Sruti-jatam means Vedic. Why? Sadaya-hrdaya-darsita-pasu-ghatam: "You are so much compassionate to see poor animals being killed unnecessarily." Kesava dhrta-buddha-sarira jaya jagadisa hare: "All glories to Jagadisa. You have now assumed the form of Lord Buddha, and You are playing in pastimes." So Lord Buddha is accepted as incarnation of Krishna. In Bhagavata also it is stated. He is accepted as the tenth incarnation.

Allen Ginsberg: Ah. Who was nine?

Prabhupada: Nine was Baladeva. Baladeva, Krishna's elder brother Balarama.

Allen Ginsberg: Then Buddha is one possible tenth.

Prabhupada: Not tenth. Buddha is ninth. Yes. Buddha is ninth. Baladeva is eighth. And the tenth is awaiting.

Allen Ginsberg: Kalki.

Prabhupada: Kalki.

Allen Ginsberg: Now, what is Kalki's nature?

Prabhupada: Kalki's nature, that is described in Bhagavata. He will come just like a prince, royal dress with sword, and on horseback, simply killing, no preaching. All rascals killed. No more preaching. (laughing) That is the last. There will be no brain to understand what is God.

Allen Ginsberg: There will be no brain to understand God?

Prabhupada: They will be so dull, so dull. It requires brain to understand. Just like in the Bhagavata it is said that evam prasanna-manaso [SB 1.2.20], "fully joyful," bhagavad-bhakti-yoga, "by practice of bhakti-yoga." Evam prasanna-manaso bhagavad-bhakti-yogatah, mukta-sangasya: "and freed from all material contamination." He can understand God. Do you think God is so cheap thing, anyone will understand? Because they do not understand, they present something nonsense: "God is like this. God is like that. God is like that." And when God Himself comes, that "Here I am, Krishna," they don't accept it. They'll create their own God.

Allen Ginsberg: So Kalki comes at the end of the Kali-yuga?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Allen Ginsberg: And is Kalki connected with the Kali-yuga cycle?

Prabhupada: Yes. Kalki, yes.

Allen Ginsberg: So He would come at the end of Kali-yuga to end the yuga.

Prabhupada: Yes. Then Satya-yuga will begin.

Allen Ginsberg: Then what begins?

Prabhupada: Satya-yuga.

Allen Ginsberg: Which is?

Prabhupada: Satya-yuga, the pious. Satya-yuga. People will be pious, truthful, long-living.

Allen Ginsberg: Are those people that remain or whatever new creation comes out of the destruction?

Prabhupada: Some of them will remain, some of them. It will not completely extinguish. Some of them will remain, pious. Paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam [Bg. 4.8]. All miscreants will be killed, and out of them, there must be some pious... They remain.

Allen Ginsberg: Do you think of this in terms of a historical event that will occur in the lifetime of your disciples?

Prabhupada: No. This will happen at least 400,000's of years after, at least. So by that time...

Allen Ginsberg: They will go down, down, down for 400,000 years?

Prabhupada: Yes. So at that time my disciples will be with Krishna. (laughter)

Devotees: Haribol!

Prabhupada: And those who will not follow them, they will see the fun, how they are being killed.

Allen Ginsberg: 400,000 years. Will people still be chanting Hare Krishna in 400,000...

Prabhupada: No. Hare Krishna will be finished within ten thousand years. There will be no more Hare Krishna.

Allen Ginsberg: Ah. So what will be left?

Prabhupada: Nothing. Left will be I'll kill you and eat you, and you shall kill me. You shall eat me. That will be left.

Allen Ginsberg: After ten thousand years?

Prabhupada: Yes. There will be no grain, no milk, no sugar, no fruit. So I have to eat you, and you will have to eat me. Full facility for meat-eating. (laughter) Full facility. Krishna is very kind. He'll give you facility: "All right. Why cows and calves? You take your own son. Yes. Eat nicely." Just like serpents, snakes, they eat their own offsprings, tigers. So this will happen.

Allen Ginsberg: Kali eats her own...

Prabhupada: Yes. And there will be no brain to understand, no preacher, nothing else. Go. Go to, to the dog. And then Krishna will come: "All right, let me kill you so that you are saved." So...

Allen Ginsberg: But you see it as actually a historical thing of ten thousand years for the chanting, of the diminishing chanting of...

Prabhupada: Yes. These are...

Allen Ginsberg: Well, then do you think more people will chant Hare Krishna or fewer?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. More people. Now it will increase.

Allen Ginsberg: Until?

Prabhupada: Up to ten thousand years.

Allen Ginsberg: And then?

Prabhupada: Then diminish.

Allen Ginsberg: So what is the purpose of right now, a world increase...

Prabhupada: People will take advantage of this up to ten thousand years. Then they will...

Allen Ginsberg: So this is like the last rope, the last gasp.

Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes. So the sooner we take to shelter, shelter of Krishna consciousness, is better.

Allen Ginsberg: Well, then, according to Vedic theory, when did this yuga begin? According to this Vedic theory... Or... This is sastra?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Allen Ginsberg: When did this yuga...?

Prabhupada: Begin from this Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He introduced five hundred years ago, and it will continue now.

Hayagriva: Kali-yuga.

Prabhupada: Kali-yuga has begun five thousand years ago.

Allen Ginsberg: Began five thousand years ago.

Kirtanananda: But this wave within Kali-yuga, in which Hare Krishna increases and then diminishes, is about ten thousand years and that began five hundred years ago.

Prabhupada: Kali-yuga, the duration of life of Kali-yuga is 432,000's of years. Out of that, we have passed five thousand years. There is balance, 427,000's of years. Out of that, ten thousand years is nothing.

Allen Ginsberg: Where is all this?

Prabhupada: Vedic literature.

Allen Ginsberg: What...?

Prabhupada: Padma Purana, Puranas.

Allen Ginsberg: Bhagavata Purana.

Prabhupada: Bhagavata Purana.

Allen Ginsberg: Has the detailed analysis of what goes on within the Kali-yuga?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, yes. I'll read you sometimes.

Allen Ginsberg: There are translations of that. There are some translations of that.

Prabhupada: Yes. In the Twelfth Canto, the Kali-yuga descriptions are there.

Allen Ginsberg: Twelfth Canto.

Prabhupada: Twelfth Canto. And you will find that all the descriptions are coming to be true. Just like there is one statement, svikaram eva udvahe: "Marriage will be performed simply by agreement." Now that is being done. And lavanyam kesa-dharanam: "People will think that he has become very beautiful by keeping bunch of hairs." That is coming true. These are written there. All things are there in Bhagavata history.

Allen Ginsberg: Well, in the Bhagavata Purana is there also provision for the Caitanya cult?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Krsna-varnam tvisakrsnam [SB 11.5.32]. We have given that in that book, our Teachings of Lord Caitanya. That is the first quotation there.

Allen Ginsberg: So it's on this quotation from Bhagavata Purana that Caitanya built His system?

Prabhupada: No, no. That is program, already presented, and He came to execute the program. Just like our meeting is already programmed. I come and execute it. That's all. That was previous. Clearly it is said, " 'In the Kali-yuga the Supreme Lord comes as one who always chants the holy name of Sri Krishna, who is Sri Krishna Himself, whose complexion is yellow.' Srimad-Bhagavatam, Eleventh Canto, Fifth Chapter, 32nd verse."

Allen Ginsberg: It's in there.

Prabhupada: So we have accepted Lord Caitanya as Krishna not fanatically. There are evidence in Mahabharata, in Upanisads, in Puranas, in Bhagavata, in all Vedic scripture.

Allen Ginsberg: Well, then, within this period of ten thousand years, only those who hear Krishna's name and worship Krishna by chanting...

Prabhupada: Yes. Kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sangah param vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. That is also stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam.

Allen Ginsberg: So only those who practice Krishna chanting can attain moksa.

Prabhupada: They become immediately liberated and go back to home, back to Godhead.

Allen Ginsberg: And everybody else gets involved deeper and deeper in the yuga.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes. So if anyone believes in the sastras, they should take to this Krishna consciousness. That is intelligence, to take advantage of authorized scriptures. You'll find in the Bhagavata, There is a history of Candragupta, and "The Yavanas will become kings." That means English occupation, Mohammedan occupation. Everything is there. And Buddha's appearance, kikatesu bhavisyati. Kikatesu means in the Bihar province in India. Bhavisyati. Because Bhagavata Purana was written five thousand years ago, and Lord Buddha appeared about 2,600 years ago. So therefore it is stated, bhavisyati: "In future, just in the beginning of Kali-yuga, Lord will appear as Buddha. His mother's name will be Anjana, and his business will be to cheat the atheists."

Allen Ginsberg: To cheat the atheists.

Prabhupada: Yes. Sammohaya sura-dvisam [SB 1.3.24]. Sura-dvisam means atheists. Surat. Sura-dvisam means those who are envious of Lord's devotees. That means atheist. So to bewilder them. What is that bewildering? This atheist class, they became so much absorbed in this animal-killing, they forgot everything about God. So they said, "What is God? We don't mind." So Lord Buddha says, "Yes, there is no God." Lord's philosophy is: "There is no God. Void. There is no God. But what I say, you follow. Yes. That's all right." But he is God. Is it not cheating?

Allen Ginsberg: Yes, except that he claims to be neither God nor not God.

Prabhupada: Huh? But he never said that "I am God." He said there is no God.

Allen Ginsberg: No. He doesn't say there's no God either. He says...

Prabhupada: That's it. That's anyway.

Allen Ginsberg: He says, all conceptions of the existence of the self, as well as all conceptions of the nonexistence of the self, as well as all conceptions of the existence of a supreme self, as well as all conceptions of the nonexistence of the supreme self are equally arbitrary, being only conceptions.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is a jugglery of words. So his principle was that they did not believe in God. So still the Buddhists says, "You don't believe in God." So but they are worshiping God, Lord Buddha. There are so many temples. In the same way, as we worship. So this is transcendental cheating.

Allen Ginsberg: Transcendental cheating.

Prabhupada: (chuckling) Just like sometimes father has to cheat his child. That is not cheating. That is welfare. But apparently it (looks) likes cheating. A child is insistent on some point. "Yes, yes. You are all right. But you do this like this. Yes, you are very good boy." Like that. But Vaisnava, in Vaisnava literature, in Vedic literature, he is God. The godless worshiping God in a different way. If there is nothing, why they should worship Buddha even?

Allen Ginsberg: They don't... Well, strictly speaking, one does not worship Buddha.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes, they have many big, big temples in Burma and Japan.

Allen Ginsberg: Yeah. But the practice in the temples is like empty.

Prabhupada: Maybe. That is a little different. That's all. But the temple worship and God worship is there.

Allen Ginsberg: In, like in Zen Buddhism and in...

Prabhupada: That is later invention. Originally Lord Buddha, the statue of Lord Buddha, worshiped all, all over...

Allen Ginsberg: Originally there was no Buddha. There was a wheel for the doctrine, for the dharma. There was a wheel, and then for a parasol.

Prabhupada: We see from historical, archeological evidences, all over...

Allen Ginsberg: Then, when the Europeans came to India...

Prabhupada: It is not the question, Europeans.

Allen Ginsberg: Then they made a statue of a human-faced Buddha.

Guest (1): No, no. Buddha's temple was much before then. (indistinct)

Allen Ginsberg: What it had as a...

Guest (1): No. Buddha was a yuga-pracara. That is very old, old.

Prabhupada: Yes. Very old.

Guest (1): Because I saw the date, the posture of Lord Buddha when he died in a place, in a village, and I saw Buddha 20 feet long, gold Buddha statue, just the way he lied when he was dead.

Allen Ginsberg: Pari nirvana, yes. Guest (1): Pari nirvana pose, exactly. Twenty-two feet he was, long. And it was made just after his death.

Allen Ginsberg: What I had understood is that like the Jews and the Muslims, the original first few centuries of Buddhist meditation made use of a wheel for the dharma, or a parasol, or a bo tree as the image of Buddha, as at Sanchi. But no, but no...

Guest (1): So long Buddha was living. After that, when Buddha died, they started making his statue, I think.

Prabhupada: yes. That is the archeological evidence. Archeological evidence is that Buddha's statues were original.

Allen Ginsberg: The museum at Mathura, I think, had the earliest human statues of Buddha, which are Greek nature.

Guest (1): Because Candragupta's style... (Bengali) And they had many temple...

Prabhupada: No, Buddha is worshiped by statue. That is historical. That is historical fact. And there are many temples in Burma, China, and in Japan, all these Buddhist countries. But these Buddhist temples began not exactly after Buddha's disappearance. At least, after one thousand years. That is a fact.

Allen Ginsberg: Yes. That's much later.

Prabhupada: Yes, much later. Because when Buddhism was driven out of India, then in Japan, China, Burma, the Buddhism flourished. Yes. That is after, almost after one thousand years. Otherwise whole India was Buddhist, whole India. Sometimes the Jagannatha Temple... They interpret. Actually it is not. They say that is also Buddhist.

Allen Ginsberg: Which?

Prabhupada: Jagannatha Temple.

Allen Ginsberg: I think I told you I had darsana with Jagannatha.

Prabhupada: Oh, you have?

Allen Ginsberg: Yes. I got inside the temple. I was silent and made believe I was a mad, a madman. I had long hair, and I had pyjamas, white khadi, khadi cloth.

Prabhupada: Just like some Punjabi.

Allen Ginsberg: So I went inside. And when anybody came to ask me anything, because I was afraid of opening my mouth...

Prabhupada: There is no enemy of a dumb. Bhuvar satru nyaya.

Allen Ginsberg: So I just kept my mouth closed and got down on my knees and touched their feet. So they all thought that I was crazy, and so they kept away from me. (laughter) So I got inside.

Prabhupada: That's nice. So you had a nice view of Jagannatha?

Allen Ginsberg: Yes.

Prabhupada: That's nice.

Allen Ginsberg: It was very beautiful. I was there about... with Peter also, about a week, a week there.

Prabhupada: So you saw once or several times?

Allen Ginsberg: One time. I was afraid to go in and out many times. I figured I got away with it once, and I didn't want to...

Prabhupada: But that Aquarian Gospel said that Lord Jesus Christ lived in the temple.

Guest (1): (Bengali) Jesus Christ was there.

Prabhupada: He was thick and thin with the priest. One priest was very friendly.

Guest (1): Vidyapati.

Prabhupada: And he was discussing philosophical talks with them.

Allen Ginsberg: According to the Aquarian Gospel, Christ was in Jagannatha Puri?

Prabhupada: Yes. And he saw Ratha-yatra, and there is, name of Krishna is there.

Allen Ginsberg: Ratha-yatra.

Prabhupada: Ratha-yatra, as we are performing, San Francisco. So Lord Jesus Christ saw.

Allen Ginsberg: We went to Mathura also.

Prabhupada: Ah, Mathura. Yes.

Allen Ginsberg: For several days. And Vrndavana for about a week.

Prabhupada: You stayed there, Vrndavana?

Allen Ginsberg: Yeah, about a week.

Prabhupada: Oh. You have seen Vrndavana nicely.

Allen Ginsberg: Well, we went from one temple to another, sang, sat by the river, went to the little garden where the tree is.

Prabhupada: Nidhuvana.

Allen Ginsberg: And met two bhakti devotees. The one I mentioned, Srimata Krsnaji and Bankibihari.

Prabhupada: Bankibihari?

Allen Ginsberg: Yes. They translate from Mirabhai.

Prabhupada: Oh. English.

Allen Ginsberg: Into English. Good translations. Good translations. They were published in the Bhakti-vidya-bhavan series. In that series. They have four or five books.

Prabhupada: Oh. They have five books they have written?

Allen Ginsberg: One Sufis, Yogis, Saints, poets like Muktesvara. And then another of Mira. Two volumes of Mira with a life of Mira. And then one on the Kumbhamela, a book on the Kumbhamela.

Prabhupada: They are good scholars.

Allen Ginsberg: Yes. Good scholars. They know Blake also. They know English.

Prabhupada: Mataji?

Allen Ginsberg: Srimata Krsnaji.

Guest (1): Mathura, I think this Mataji lives so(?).

Allen Ginsberg: In India.

Prabhupada: No. She is not. She does not...

Allen Ginsberg: But in Vrndavana.

Guest (1): In Vrndavana.

Prabhupada: Nidhuvana(?). In which year you have been in Vrndavana?

Allen Ginsberg: Which year? 1962.

Prabhupada: Oh. At that time I was there.

Allen Ginsberg: We probably passed on the street. (laughs) You were there then? '62.

Prabhupada: I left Vrndavana 1965. From 1956 I am there, I was there.

Allen Ginsberg: I would like to go and live for a while and to stay. I liked it when I was there. It would be a good place to live.

Hayagriva: You're going next year?

Allen Ginsberg: I think pretty soon I'm going to be going back. Yeah. I have to stabilize the farm I'm on.

Hayagriva: Good luck.

Allen Ginsberg: Hare Krishna. (end)
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